Curse

greenchylde · Nov 30, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

i read this article on Monster Ecology and thought it was cute. it mentioned games i have played and ones i have watched being played and i understood where they were coming from until i saw the GW mention and that NPCs dont fight eachother in GW and i was like "what?" then what was happening in Factions? On more than one occasion i have witnessed NPC battles and waited to finished off the already injured survivors. it really bothers me when people take the time to write something and are just wrong cause they are too lazy to finish up their research.

Apharot · Nov 30, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenchylde

i read this article on Monster Ecology and thought it was cute. it mentioned games i have played and ones i have watched being played and i understood where they were coming from until i saw the GW mention and that NPCs dont fight eachother in GW and i was like "what?" then what was happening in Factions? On more than one occasion i have witnessed NPC battles and waited to finished off the already injured survivors. it really bothers me when people take the time to write something and are just wrong cause they are too lazy to finish up their research.

I've seen that happen in NF and did the same thing

Antheus · Nov 30, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Different models were tried in MMOs. Mobs with love/hate patterns, food dependancy, migrations, flocks, reproduction, ...

They failed. Big time.

Such concepts sound great on paper, but have some severe issues when implemented in MMOs, since the small size of the world doesn't allow for enough buffer or inertia, and is quickly (in a matter of minutes or hours) completely destroyed by a handful of players.

This is why without different combat and game design, mobs are destined to stay statically spawned xp bags.

And yes, in some areas mobs do fight each others, but allowing that is by far too exploitable. It happened when a bug occured and all mobs attacked each other. The loot exploits were so severe, the bug was fixed in a matter of hours, before it could affect the economy.

Inde · Nov 30, 2006, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenchylde

i read this article on Monster Ecology and thought it was cute. it mentioned games i have played and ones i have watched being played and i understood where they were coming from until i saw the GW mention and that NPCs dont fight eachother in GW and i was like "what?" then what was happening in Factions? On more than one occasion i have witnessed NPC battles and waited to finished off the already injured survivors. it really bothers me when people take the time to write something and are just wrong cause they are too lazy to finish up their research.

You are simplifying one line of the article. Now I've been speaking to people who have played Oblivion and the AI of the NPC's is "massively" different to quote one. Yes there is some infighting in Guild wars with NPC's/monsters but I think the point was a comparison and not an end-all statement.

It's on different levels, in Guild Wars you have mobs that will simply attack each other if they get into agro range because... they just do. In Oblivion it makes sense, it is an ecology, there is a reason behind it and it's done in a realistic way. In GW, if you lure monsters into NPCs, they'll fight, or else it's mostly scripted. In Oblivion, if a random NPC steals a loaf of bread, the guards might chase him. I think that's the point of this article. It's not inaccurate so much as it was just a general statement. The AI of Oblivion's NPC's are much more advanced then Guild Wars. (Thanks to JR and Akuma for clarifying it to me as well!)

*Darcy* · Nov 30, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

greenchylde is talking about places such as Nebu Terrace in Kryta, where the Ettins get into it with the Tengu or Shing Jea Island where the naga fight with the pirates, etc.

@ greenchylde - But I also think that the article is talking more about human NPC fighting.

ANet doesn't allow you to gain loot or xp from battles between AI (except during a bug from an update).

ericdanie · Nov 30, 2006, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Ecology as meant in the article is pointless in Guild Wars until there are options other than killing monsters, killing monsters, killing monsters and killing monsters in an explorable area (sure, you can chest run/run too, but meh you are running from monsters, and avoiding meeting any). When they add non-combat ocupations in GW, ecology might become viable.

Ninna · Nov 30, 2006, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

There is no infighting in Guild Wars. There is no infighting in World of Warcraft either, as far as I am aware. The monsters are about as co-operative towards each other as any communist leader could wish for. They don't use each other for snacks, they don't bash each other on the head, and there are no guts-and-glory lieutenants who lead their troops on foolish raids. The AI does its thing, and that is to trash the opponent.

I dont agree with this

as early as 1st mission, gargoyles and grawl are squared off in water

who remembers the white mantle / centaur fights?

or Afflicted killing any green npc

in Factions and NF, the slaying becomes more meaningful
- necros kill the roaming lvl 5 critters to make minions
- ranger classes tame nearby pets

no it doesnt compare to Oblivion

but its certainly not cooperative as this claim...

Quote:

The monsters are about as co-operative towards each other as any communist leader could wish for.

Don Zardeone · Dec 01, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Random observation: There's griffons fighting other griffons near the mountain troll collector in snake dance X.x

I was fighting kournans when suddenly some veldt beetles popped up. Thay started fighting eachother =D

lyra_song · Dec 01, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I like how if a monster is chasing you in the desert...and you see a salving cactus....they'd kill it first, then chase you again.

Hyper Cutter · Dec 01, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

I swear I once saw Margonites in Nightfallen Garden turn on and kill a Graven Effigy (the profession-changers) that was traveling with them...

Pebbles · Dec 01, 2006, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter

I swear I once saw Margonites in Nightfallen Garden turn on and kill a Graven Effigy (the profession-changers) that was traveling with them...

I saw somthing similer in the nightfallen garden I saw a group of margonites turn nasty and smash up a group of Menzies shadow army.

I was like. "arn't they supposed to be friends?" Drinking game in the barrack gone bad I guess.

It's a well known and commonly used tactic to intentionally start scrimmages between the zombies and Menzies armies to thin out the numbers before attacking and retaking the temple of war.

I also remeber battering up a group of frozen titans by dragging them into a group of Avricarda and having them Obliterate the titians.

Trvth Jvstice · Dec 01, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

The article was talking about NPCs fighting each other as part of a simulated realistic environment or ecosystem. Not the way GW does it. In GW a NPC is either programmed to attack another NPC as in the Northern Wall mission eg, or they will attack a NPC that they are tagged to be hostile against.

In games like Oblivion that attempt to create lifelike or realistic interactions between NPCs, they attack or aid or devour another NPC because of a specific need or tendancy programmed into that character. Not because they attack any NPC the designers tag as an enemy.

Ninna · Dec 01, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

as I mentioned earlier,
what about necros killing and creating minions from roaming level 5 critters

those level 5s certainly dont do anything to warrant being attacked

they are killed as a "minion need" even if nothing is being fought

Matsumi · Dec 01, 2006, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Dunham hates the roaming animals in the explorable areas, lol.

Cataclysm · Dec 01, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Different models were tried in MMOs. Mobs with love/hate patterns, food dependancy, migrations, flocks, reproduction, ...

They failed. Big time.

Such concepts sound great on paper, but have some severe issues when implemented in MMOs, since the small size of the world doesn't allow for enough buffer or inertia, and is quickly (in a matter of minutes or hours) completely destroyed by a handful of players.

This is why without different combat and game design, mobs are destined to stay statically spawned xp bags.

And yes, in some areas mobs do fight each others, but allowing that is by far too exploitable. It happened when a bug occured and all mobs attacked each other. The loot exploits were so severe, the bug was fixed in a matter of hours, before it could affect the economy.

I wish that they would fight eachother more. I see monsters attack me that passed up the weaker, more ill defended and tastier Collectors and other NPCs. I can see why they dont want that but even SUNSPEAR SCOUTS wont fight. It can get rediculous. I remember in Factions I'd be beside myself with glee standing outside aggro range spamming /cheer, /clap and /goteam as my Kurzick NPCs slaughtered the Luxon NPCs. Even if we lost it was easy pickings!

And even in the places they do go at it things are so uneven I cant get a moment to sit back and cheer from the sidelines. lvl 10 Deldrimor's vs lvl 24 Stone Summit... come on.

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 01, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

The Afflicted fight everything too as seen between the Vasburg armoury and The unwaking waters, im sure ive seen several other species fight all around the place in all 3 campaigns but i cant remember most of them i just rememeber seeing lots of infighting

Emik · Dec 01, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

I think what the article is about is that the mobs themselves fight each other as soon as one of their 'allies' triggers the hit.
Seeing as 'teamfire' is off in a game as GW makes it work from out-of-party- enemies only.

Emu · Dec 01, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

While it's true that there is some monster vs monster combat in gw, it's for the most part contained to limited scripted events. For example, one might logically gleen from watching the trolls fight the avicara that the two species are natural enemies. This person could then go anywhere else where the two species are found together to find that trolls and avicara are content to stand within each others agro patiently waiting for PCs to come around.

Sophitia Leafblade · Dec 01, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05

true but dont forget within guildwars several of the species are sentient like the avicara and also there are several groups amongst the species, some groups could be inherently more agressive to other species than others, such as the Avicara near droks hunting the trolls as food since there hungery since there is little nearby food

hehe i had almost forgotten about the grawl gargolye fight, thats a classic

I do think guildwars could do with a little more natural infighting thats not predetermined like most of the infighting that does occur

Trvth Jvstice · Dec 01, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I don't understand why so few get the point of the Monster Ecology article and since there are 2 threads about the article, I'll just copy the post I made in the first one.

The article was talking about NPCs fighting each other as part of a simulated realistic environment or ecosystem. Not the way GW does it. In GW a NPC is either programmed to attack another NPC as in the Northern Wall mission eg, or they will attack a NPC that they are tagged to be hostile against.

In games like Oblivion that attempt to create lifelike or realistic interactions between NPCs, they attack or aid or devour another NPC because of a specific need or tendancy programmed into that character. Not because they attack any NPC the designers tag as an enemy.